Anarcho-Collectivism versus
Anarcho-Capitalism Debate
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Between Punkerslut and
Hogeye Bill
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Summary
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Released Under the Creative Commons
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Summary
by Punkerslut
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Letter #01
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By Punkerslut
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Summary: All human behavior requires opportunity, as well as liberty. To say that people should just have liberty, without opportunity, does absolutely nothing to change their position. It is about securing both and for everyone that will uplift humanity.
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Quote: "If we are going to achieve real liberty, then the people need just that -- the right to work the lands, enjoy the benefit of the fruits of their labor, and to be the masters of themselves." -- Punkerslut
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Letter #02
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By Hogeye Bill
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Summary: Opportunity is natural wherever their is liberty. And as long as the people are free, they'll have an equality of opportunity between them, even if one person owns everything and everyone is dependent upon them for food.
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Quote: "In a free market, the larger firm is hemmoraging wealth faster than the smaller firms. Not only that, the smaller firms can stop producing easier than the huge ones." -- Hogeye Bill
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Letter #03
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By Punkerslut
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Summary: When examining the economy, you cannot deny that centralization is the key to absolutely all industrial development; without it, machines could not exist, and everything would be made by hand. And all capitalists, even in pure liberty, will resurrect a new government to protect themselves.
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Quote: "... every member of the Capitalist class trades in, or contributes to, the slavery and oppression of third world peoples. If there was one Capitalist who had a "refusing to handle stolen goods" policy, they would quickly find themselves economically isolated, which will certainly destroy their industry." -- Punkerslut
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Letter #04
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By Hogeye Bill
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Summary: Small firms and businesses are more nimble and can survive economic criss. There is no logic in examining the capitalist class as its own class, like it has its own interests and behavior. Absolutely none of that can be true.
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Quote: "I think you may be using the concept of class inappropriately. A class is a conceptual grouping, like blue-eyed people or people over six feet tall. A class has no motives, although individual people in that class may." -- Hogeye Bill
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Letter #05
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By Punkerslut
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Summary: All economists of the past have examined the Capitalist class as distinct in their interests and behavior. All free market theory, from Plato to Adam Smith, is discusses the wealthy capitalists as inherently opposed to the people. It is not a moral judgment, about what is right or wrong -- it is a scientific judgment, based on the facts available.
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Quote: "To be an owner of Capital is to have all of your interests directed against the majority of people. By excluding the majority of people, and including a very few, the Anarcho-Capitalist Revolution certainly fails to be Anarchist. Other economists are generally in agreement about the inherent, anti-people quality of the Capitalist class..." -- Punkerslut
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Letter #06
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By Hogeye Bill
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Summary: One cannot distinguish a Capitalist from a worker by their interests or behavior. They are not specifically distinct from each other at all, and they very well could be exactly the same.
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Quote: "I agree with you that big corporations and unions and established politically connected entities are more likely to utilize and participate in State aggression - as a heuristic. But just as I would not accuse an individual black teenage male of being a criminal just because of his demographic class, I do not accuse a large entity of aiding and abetting State aggression just because of its size." -- Hogeye Bill
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Letter #07
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By Punkerslut
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Summary: When reading histories or economics of Capitalism, we find endless evidence about price-fixing, monopoly, and oligopoly. Every single one of these has risen to existence sometimes with the state, sometimes without. But there is no worker who has ever fixed prices, no Capitalist who has ever labored for wages. Historians and economists agrees with me.
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Quote: "Both Capitalist and the workers have prejudices, or attitudes about the social organization of humanity. There are a million things that could influence their attitudes, in terms of religion, culture, family or friends, etc., etc.. In terms of economics, we just want to know what motivates them in their trading activities -- whether it's buying commodities, or exchanging labor for wages." -- Punkerslut
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Letter #08
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By Hogeye Bill
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Summary: Small farmers aren't trying to compete with big capitalists, and they don't try to support the state, either. Besides that, General Strikes have only legimitized the state, by creating freedom of speech, press, and the right to vote. These unions are actually creating government power.
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Quote: "I agree that the worker will benefit most from a stateless society and free markets. I think that encouraging him to believe in the socialist exploitation theory and hate capitalists is counterproductive. We must teach him that the State is the problem." -- Hogeye Bill
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Letter #09
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By Punkerslut
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Summary: Game theoreticians, economists, and historians have all noted thousands, or even millions, of monopolies coming into existence. Many of them reached their position through the natural market laws of Capitalism, and without the aggression of the state. They used the government to maintain what they had already acquired by dominating and exploiting others.
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Quote: "Well, the matter of a small farmer competing with a megacorporation is fairly important. If competition isn't possible, then the majority of farmers are going to be employees of the megacorporation -- and not their own farmers." -- Punkerslut
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Letter #10
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By Hogeye Bill
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Summary: All of those cases of price-fixing were actually the state just trying to make it look like it was protecting the people. There's actually no evidence for the statements of Adam Smith to our encyclopedias today. Naturally-occuring monopolies and oligopolies are a hoax.
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Quote: "I'm not very familiar with some of your examples like the Siemens, Alstrom, Toshiba et. al. price fixing. They were charged with price fixing (unjustly IMO since fixing prices is a victimless crime, i.e. no aggression was involved)." -- Hogeye Bill
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Letter #11
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By Punkerslut
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Summary: These evidences of price-fixing are indisputable, and I'll pour them out for you. You're simply denying that these sourced, verifiable incidents ever happened. But when we look at the real evidence, when we bring up real statistics and not just arguments, it's clear. Capitalists are responsible for the conspiracy to create unemployment, poverty, and homelessness, just like Adam Smith said exactly two centuries ago.
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Quote: "On the contrary, it seems like the majority of collusion, price-fixing, and cartels happens outside of the hands of government. Here we have almost complete statistics on the state monopolies -- but one has to dig deep to uncover the Capitalist-planned oligopolies. I'm certain that you would find far more price-fixing done by Capitalism, than by government." -- Punkerslut
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Letter #12
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By Hogeye Bill
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Summary: Personal liberty means that everyone is going to succeed more or less than others. Since there is an inequality of skill and dedication, there must be an inequality in the distribution of society's wealth.
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Quote: "It seems that our main disagreement is in our prediction of what a stateless society would be like. I think it would be great, and that massive accumulations of wealth would be rare and innocuous. You seem to think that in a stateless society large accumulations would still occur almost always and be a big problem." -- Hogeye Bill
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Letter #13
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By Punkerslut
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Summary: There are plenty of writers, of economics and politics, who have observed the work and development of natural oligopolies. There have even been scholars and researchers who have made this objective the prime point of their existence. You cannot simply say, 'give me the Free Market's ideal of Capitalism, but don't give me the Free Market's theory that all Capitalists are inherently working against the interests of the people.'
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Quote: "I've provided quotes by Adam Smith, Josiah Child, and Thomas Malthus, as well as linking to the book where I provided a couple hundred citations by equally respected economists. My argument has always been that profit is consuming the labor of others without contributing. It seems so elementary and basic that it should be used as the definition of profit." -- Punkerslut
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Letter #14
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By Hogeye Bill
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Summary: In all these cases of price-fixing, there is some state support, and besides that, monopolies are tremendously unsuccesful at coming together on their own.
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Quote: "Your Adam Smith point lacks relevancy. It shows that businesses like to collude, but it doesn't show that they can successfully collude to fix prices when there are no governmentally imposed barriers to entry and trade." -- Hogeye Bill
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Letter #15
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By Punkerslut
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Summary: Even more examples and cases of price-fixing are brought up. There is everything wrong with a system where people are hungry, poor, and dispossessed, just because it makes wealth for the rich. And it is not by industry, but by maintaining a system without opportunity, that has created this type of poverty.
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Quote: "State aggression has existed since the dawn of civilization, but the majority of society being employed by a few is a very new fact. Tracing the history of industrialism, however, explains the class division much more logically." -- Punkerslut
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Letter #16
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By Hogeye Bill
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Summary: All of your examples of price-fixing and collusion are from corporations that relied on the state. If you want to create real opportunity for people, all you need to do is abolish the state, and submit to the will of the new property owners.
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Quote: "But it was the State that provided the aggression which enabled some firms to become much larger than they would have been in a free market. I want the optimum size of firm for producing the needs and wants of man." -- Hogeye Bill
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Letter #17
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By Punkerslut
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Summary: The people cannot be free and happy without an opportunity to participate in what is known as human society. You can promise them liberty from the state, all that you want. But if they're submitting to a Capitalist, in order to get work, so that they don't die from starvation -- then they are just another subject, taking orders, from someone who controls them.
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Quote: "Classist dogma? That's a bit rough. Very early in the debate, I openly admitted to classism. To simply call it 'classist dogma' doesn't defeat it. Adam Smith was a classist -- he dealt with Capitalist behavior in one chapter, and worker behavior in another." -- Punkerslut
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